Interview with Rich & Stew - 4/7/96 11pm - 11.40pm (approx) Battersea Arts Centre.

Do you enjoy doing Edinburgh, or do you see it as a sort of 'job requirement'?

STEW - No, well I really love it I can't wait to go again

RICH - I'm really looking forward to it too. No, we do it cos we like it - we don't have to do it, now we can afford it. We've done it for the last...Stew's done all but one of the last ten years and I've done six or seven, I suppose.

But now the venues are a little bit bigger...?!

RICH - They're not, I've played the same venue for the last four years, a small one...

Progress!

RICH - No, no, no - I like it, it's just a way of trying stuff out, really, just trying it out. I'm sort of doing...I'm doing a play this year and y'know we do, we're doing a bigger venue, the two of us.

Oh yeah, 'Punk's Not Dead' (Stew talks to someone else, gets interrupted by...) Are you still doing 'Cluub Z'?

RICH - ( taps Stew to get his attention) Are you still doing...

Behave! (Taps on table) this is a proper thing here, right...

STEW - Eh?

Repeats question.

STEW - Not this year in Edinburgh, no. The reason we're not doing Edinburgh is because ...um...Kevin Eldon couldn't do it because he got a part in a sit-com that paid much better than we could afford to.

What was the sit-com?

STEW - Er... 'The Cows', which is Eddie Izzard's sit-com. Roger Mann wouldn't go because he was too poor - he's on the dole. Richard Thomas, the musician, wouldn't go because he's too poor - he's on the dole. And the opera singer Laurie Luxembourg...Lixemburg wouldn't go coz we couldn't afford to pay her and she could make more money staying in London, singing. Um...and...er...there was only me and Simon Munnery - who does 'Alan Parker' - and...er... Sally Phillips - who does 'Fist Of Fun' - left. And between the three of us we couldn't really do anything like what we wanted...so...er...we had to let it go in the end. But we have got a pilot of it in September for Channel 4, which we're filming in September.

And that's definitely going ahead?

STEW - It is now, it's just all sorted out. I've just...I've just written the fourth rewrite of the script and we're doing it in September. But we really wanted to do it (at Edinburgh) but the thing is...the thing about 'Cluub Z' is that half the people in it are, like, people who've basically got disillusioned with comedy and given up and therefore...um...they've got no money ...er...whereas I'm about the only person doing 'Cluub Z' who's making a living, the rest of them are people that have, like...that are so good they can't make a living. D'yer understand what I mean by that? They're too good to make a living...er...so um...they, they just couldn't afford to go.

RICH - He's so modest! (Sniggers)

STEW - In the end, um...well, no, what I'm saying is I've got a fairly commercial act compared to, like, Roger Mann or Richard Thomas, or whatever, so I could afford to go, whereas the rest of them just couldn't afford to do it. Cos you always loose loads of money at Edinburgh, like, the budget got up to about eight thousand pounds and there's obviously...we would have just lost that and so it would've meant it would've cost me about four thousand pounds to do it and Simon four thousand, so there was no way it was do-able in the end. So...but...um, next year if we've got a series, we'll obviously do it, cos we'll be able to, like, knock some of the money from the series into doing a live show...but also 'Cluub Z' is quite an expensive live show. Cos for our show - take tonight, right - two of us, no props. 'Cluub Z' you want...

RICH - That bottle of wine cost nine pounds...

STEW - Yeah, but, with 'Cluub Z' you want a computer, eight people, costumes...

RICH - ...I bought it!

STEW - ...you can't do it, y'know what I mean? You can't do it on a shoestring budget without it being a bit embarrassing, so that's why.

What about 'Sex Among The Stalagmites'? What's happening with that?

RICH - Er...still waiting...it's sort of a bit difficult cos it's all about who's going to do it, really. The people interested that um...

STEW - I read it and it was...it's really, really good and obviously I'd be as delighted as anyone if Rich's scripts were shit! But it was really good, so there you are.

So if it did pull together, that would be going on TV, then?

RICH - Yeah...yeah, at the moment...Carlton commissioned it, ITV commissioned it, but...er...the people who commissioned it have left Carlton and want to...they want to do it but we just haven't...er...- it's all contractual.

STEW - The thing about it is...er...it's so good it feels more like a mini film like... er... 'Darling Buds Of May', or something, rather than...er... '2 Point 4 Children'. So it'd be quite expensive to make, the outside locations and stuff and also it hasn't got, like, really crap, sort of, 'the-vicar's-in-the-cupboard-with-someone's-pants' jokes in it, so it'd be quite hard to do.

What is it about, exactly?

RICH - Um....

STEW - Can I do it?

RICH - Ha, ha - all right then!

STEW - It's about...um (Picks up tape recorder)...it's about...er... cave guides working in Cheddar Caves, but the names have been changed...(Rich laughs) and they're er... the inter- relationships between them. But unlike most British sit-coms, the humour is character based rather than based around contrived situations. So it's much more like a good American sit-com than a bad British sit-com. But there's always the terrible danger that if it gets made in Britain all really awful actors will be cast in it who will ruin it. But er... I'm sure it'll be fine.

RICH - (Picks up tape recorder) Yes. It will be fine. At the end of the day we're gonna keep...it will be made by the production company that our management run. I'll have... I'll have...um... choice over who directs it and who's in it. And I've got ideas about who I want to be in it.

STEW - It's the best sit-com script I've ever read. It's much better than...

RICH - How many have you read?! (Laughs)

STEW - I've read Alan Davies' and 'The Cows' and it's better than either of them.

RICH - There we go. But it's...er...about me at twenty eight and me at eighteen, really, I mean it's all...we write from stuff we know, y'know. We basically...again...it's like, it's like the Edinburgh show I'm doing on my own is sort of like a conglomeration of all my friends, five people, a conglomeration of all the people I've met - which is about fifteen people, so y'know...

When are we likely to see this on TV?

RICH - At least a year, but I would've thought a couple of years.

What's this we've heard about a kid's cartoon, then?

STEW - Who've you heard about that from?

Joe Champniss, in fact.

STEW - Well, yeah, we've been through loads of artists...and, um

RICH - And he's the best so far!

STEW - Joe's actually the best so far, so...we'll see what happens.

RICH - But again, it's just finding the time to do it, I mean we...

STEW - Wrote that ten years ago...ten years ago, we wrote the...

RICH - The first idea for it, yeah.

STEW - So, y'know, that's how long that's taken.

RICH - Well, we haven't got any money...we haven't got any money. Some people are interested in it, but we haven't got anything. There's no 'definite' behind it...that's why, I think, we've got to get the drawing sorted out and then take the whole thing as a package to someone. There's been publishers interested and, y'know...(mumbles)...but, y'know, something to keep us in our old age...

With 'Cluub Z' you are taking absurdism of a sort - Dadaism - originally a counter culture to a mass TV audience...

STEW - That's the idea. I mean like...it's not, it's not

...do you think it will work, though?

STEW - Er, yeah, I do. I think it will work really well. I mean, it's not, it's not my idea - I'm just script editing it and I have the least creative input, but I sort of knock it all together 'cos all the people involved in writing it are too mental to be able to do anything properly. And that's a fact!

RICH - Stewart's very...y'know...

STEW - Well, relative to them, I am, you know...

RICH - Yeah, yeah...

STEW - So, um...

RICH - It will work, definitely...right, I'll talk about it...It will work because it's...y'know it'll work, you know why it'll work. It'll work cos it's a very good idea and all the people in it are fantastic! And it's a great...and I think it's a good idea they haven't done it (at Edinburgh) in the end then. For I was saying 'You must do it' but I think what makes it work is the...is all those people coming together, y'know, and what Stew does in it and what Kevin Eldon do and what Simon Munnery does in it, are three very different jobs to start with, y'know. So, I think it will be a massive... massive cult hit and I think about four million people will think it's their...

STEW - Will become obsessed by it.

RICH - ...will think it's their best programme they've ever seen. I think...I mean...I love the live show of it, I saw the live show last year about six times.

How much input do you have on each other's individual stuff?

STEW - Sorry. What do you mean?

Like you, Rich, are doing 'Sex Among The Stalagmites' and Stew is doing 'Cluub Z'...

STEW - Well, I read 'Sex Among The Stalagmites', um, I mean, er, in the past, I've looked at things Rich has written and I've said 'Oh, change that' or whatever...but to be honest, um, er, there's usually quite a lot of overlap because, um, we've written so much together. But I don't...I don't mind at all and similarly Rich doesn't mind if there's like an idea of his in mine, or an idea of mine in 'is...

RICH - And it's inevitably going to happen because we've got the same y'know...it just things like...

STEW - Same sense of humour, and experiences...

RICH - And like, there's lines in like, that you just do...y'know my play this year is to do with a group of friends and the things that we do as a group of friends. But different groups of friends, so a line like 'He's not a dog, he's a human being' is a very 'Lee and Herring' line, and there's no way of saying which of us made that up and it would be ridiculous to go 'Well, we can't do that' because, well, y'know...Increasingly we show stuff at the end, now, to each other and we used to show it near the beginning...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...And then we'd just go, 'well, that's good' and then someone'll go 'well, just change that one thing', y'know and y'can...and the great thing about it is that we're very different, I think...we've got a very similar sense of humour, but we're very different but we both really respect each other's opinions. Stew said 'change that line in 'Sex Among the Stalagmites' I would change it it's almost like increasingly we don't need to do that, I go to see Stew's solo shows and I go 'that was really good.'

STEW - Yeah, I mean, it's actually really nice actually because...um...also like although about half the year we work separately I think our highest public profile is obviously as a double act. And why I'm really pleased about Rich's play is that like, like I think... um...we're sort of viewed by the media as this sort of youth cult phenomenon but Rich has written a really good play there, that will like stand alongside with 'proper' plays and...um...that can only help us cos it'll help to diffuse a lot of this pathetic criticism we get that only, like, nine year olds like us.

So you don't think that will hold you back at all, with 'Fist Of Fun', then?

RICH - No, I don't think it will, cos I think we're better than people think we are on the whole. And I think young people really like us, and I think that's an excellent thing, because...

STEW - They have the best taste...

RICH - ...when I was 12 years old I knew what was really good comedy and wasn't ashamed and didn't have anything going 'Oooh, a 12 year old might like that or a 16 year old might like that or an 18 year old...' you don't have that when you're that age. And everything that I thought comedy wise as a teenager I stand by - there's nothing I think 'Ooo, that's embarrassing, liking that', y'know, so I actually think that...y'know, it'd be nice everyone liking it and I think they will, eventually. But I...I...(mumbles)...terrible.

STEW - (Talking over Rich) When I was thirteen my favourite band were The Fall, they're not my favourite band anymore but they're in my top ten, y'know, so I don't feel embarrassed about what I liked as a kid so I don't mind it if kids like us...

RICH - I think music's...I think music's different than comedy though, as well, there's more discretion in comedy earlier than there is in music, I think a 13 year old's probably got, on the whole, has probably got a worse sense of what's good music than they will do when they're 28, even if it's a good sense of what's music...maybe that's wrong, but I think with comedy, I, y'know, I liked 'Fawlty Towers', 'Monty Python', John Cleese, Rik Mayall and, y'know, all these people who were really good, and they were really good and you watch it back and it's dated cos it was made in 1982 or 1970, but they're still good. (Throughout this list Stew has been shaking his head, seemingly in disagreement)

Do you like the same comedy, then?

RICH - On the whole...

STEW - Yeah, on the whole, yeah. I mean that was one of the first things we liked about each other was that, when we met, everyone else was saying certain things were good and we didn't really agree with them, so er, we...we found a lot of common ground in that... um and er...y'know...and that's always the thing...like, um...yeah, we agreed pretty much about that even though what we do on our own is quite different, we...um have quite good shared tastes. So, yeah. It's the same. (Pause) I don't care who asks the questions...do whatever you like. (Rich disappears)

Do you switch off or are you always thinking of material...do you write it down in a notebook...?

STEW - I used to, about three years ago I used to carry a notebook round with me all the time, but I don't anymore...er...just hope I remember it...y'know. (Rich reappears)

Do you prefer doing TV, radio or live shows?

STEW - They've all got their own attraction so, er, I mean...

RICH - I think, at the moment, I prefer doing live stuff...at the moment...

(Jokingly) Cos you can have a drink then, can't you...!

RICH - Shut up!...(mumbles)...

STEW - (over Rich) No...I I I I...about a year ago I used to... about a year ago I used to feel that, um, the we did was a compromise between the best bits of both of us on our own, but now I feel it's got a sort of life of it's own so I really like doing the live show now, probably more than I do like doing stuff on my own...

RICH - And I like doing...and I think tonight we failed in a way...I think tonight weren't, to that part of, y'know...we could go ...we could go on and do a live show that would work... um...in front of any audience of people who are into our sense of humour. But tonight we took a lot of risks and some of them failed, some of them...Y'know, tonight they weren't really... they weren't into the old T...they weren't into the 'Moon on a Stick!' stuff, cos I think there were a lot of people who hadn't seen the TV stuff. And they also weren't into the stuff that's, like, taking the piss going 'Ooo they laughed about this...', they didn't really go with any of that...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - And, er...but I'd still prefer to take the risks, cos it...cos you come up with the most sublime, er, er...wanky word there!...

STEW - Well, we got a couple of things out of tonight, like, y'know, the homo-erotic thing tonight, is more developed than it's ever been and that's something we'll obviously work in...

(Jokingly) The attraction is growing...!

STEW - Well, no. Just on the...(mumbles)

RICH - I think it's...I think it actually was, y'know, you start to see the layers... (chuckles, quietly) y'know, it sounds really wanky, but...you start to see the layers within it and I think, basically, my character in the...in the double act - which isn't exactly me - but my character in the double act would really look up to Stew, and Stew would really look down on me and so the idea of me being in love with Stewart...

STEW - It's quite good...

RICH - ...bit's of that...cos it's, er...cos it's cringingly embarrassing, the fact that if I was in love with him he (chuckles) wouldn't love me back, y'know...and I'd go 'Oooo you're making an excuse!' y'know and (laughs) 'No! I don't love you...Rich (laughs and mumbles).' Y'know, I think that...I think...we've always played around that...

STEW - And it's getting better now...

RICH - ...it is getting better...we've always played around with it cos it's an interesting thing. It's a hard thing to...to deal with, cos people'll go 'Well, are you taking the piss out of being...' We're not gay, y'know and although I both of us have a...have a wider understanding of the fact that all men are...everyone's gay, y'know what I mean? So we both feel that...but neither of us - as far as I know - has had a gay experience...um... (Laughs as Stew pulls a face) but, y'know...

STEW - (Smiles) There's always Edinburgh...

RICH - ...it's an interesting thing to...to play around with and it's a...a thing that you think about, y'know what I mean...this sounds, this a very grown up thing to be talking about to you, I'm sorry...

It's okay...(!)

RICH - ...I'm twenty...it's a twenty nine - not grown up - it's a twenty nine year old...

STEW - See, I'm twenty eight, I'm twenty eight I don't understand what he's on about...!

RICH - ...he doesn't understand yet...

STEW - ...(laughs) but I hope to in about a years time...!

RICH - ...when he's twenty nine he'll sort of like...Sorry, I didn't mean 'grown up', there, that was very patronising and drunken...But it's, like, a thing you think about when you're a bit older that you don't...that you think about very differently when you're younger and, um...it is linked...I mean I've always found it interesting and I think that's to do with...with that taboos are interesting and it's, y'know...

STEW - Also like, er...the flip-side of that is, um...Rich is like the longest friend I've ever had, do you know what I mean? So, er, ironically, I probably know him better than most of the people I've ever been out with, so, um...you, er...

RICH - Better, and worse as well...

STEW - Better and worse, yeah...

RICH - Cos we know the really bad points of each other...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...that you'd never show to anyone...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...and, y'know, and things that aren't even true about... y'know, you go home with things that probably aren't really true, because, just in the middle of the night, when you're writing a thing and you've been writing for sixteen hours already, you behave in an uncharacteristic way.

So what is the worst thing about each other?

STEW - What's the worst thing? Well, I'm er...I...I, er...I, um...I, I think with me it's that I appear very unflappable and calm, but Rich knows that, um, if he pushes me too far, we'll get into fight. And, similarly, with him he seems like he thinks everything's a joke, but he's actually quite sensitive...so there's two things that probably most people wouldn't know. And...uh...actually, tonight, we went a bit further than we ever have before with the bit when he's trying to do the 'A-Team' stuff and I'm, like, bullying him and I felt...I felt a bit embarrassed by it, because...um... in many ways it was like a replay of, like, real arguments that we've had and I just thought tonight 'Oh, fuck it! I'll try and see how awful I can make it...' and actually it worked really well...

RICH - And it's good that we can, y'know...we're both....

STEW - ...and to be honest, to be honest it also diffuses the fact that next time we get to a situation like that when we've been up all night writing and I'm going 'That's a fucking shit idea. What do you mean?' we'll actually end up laughing at it rather than fighting, because tonight we've actually worked that out as a comic thing...

RICH - ...and, y'know, the fact we can laugh...we laugh about stuff...we laugh about really shitty stuff - about fighting...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...we physically fight...y'can laugh about it after - it's horrible at the time. We physically have fought each other once and argued really badly...

But you kiss and make up again...

RICH - ...well, you just forget...you've got to forgive...

STEW - Make up...

RICH - ...y'know...but, also you're not allowed to really...delve into each other, because I think, I think it gives you a really good understanding...it gives me more of an understanding about myself than about Stew, in a way, that I know how I feel about Stew, so it gives me a real, clear...you know what I mean? I've never had...you never get a really clear view of what you're thinking...(Stew tries to talk over him, almost drowning him out) you can get a clear view of what ourselves are like and I think we actually do get a clear idea of what ourselves are like...

STEW - I doubt there's another...there isn't another double act working like us who've got ...who know each other so well...y'know, basically, and hopefully we'll be able to do something with that...

RICH - ...with our 'A-Team'...I think it's so...I think it's so...I love the fact it's such a stupid conversation - the 'A-Team' thing, it's pathetic...and to actually...and y'know, I was crying, I was genuinely crying tonight - but not genuinely - (laughs) I was pretending to cry and managing to do it ...but actually I cried and tears hit the floor...and, ah...but it's not dissimilar to arguments we've really had, but it's a sort of meta-parody of arguments we've really had...and it's like, really interesting, I don't think you see that in many comedy things. And that's basically...that's, y'know...and the stuff in my play is, sort of like, based on...based on me and Stew and other people, and me and other people...and it's, like, extreme versions of ourselves, y'know, and that's what that is ...The double act is extreme versions of ourselves - it's us at our worst and at our best, in some ways...

STEW - Yeah

RICH - ...it's at our funniest and at our...

STEW - ...saddest...

RICH - ...and, um (laughs slightly)...this is getting very heavy...

Sorry...

RICH - D'you understand?

Yes, we do...

RICH - ...just come back to it in the morning. To get us at our worst that's, like, something like that 'A-Team' conversation turning into a really nasty thing, really digging in like a...a sharp nail, a sharp knife, going (mimes a rather vicious gouging action, with strange sound effects) 'I could leave this, but I'm not going to', and we've both done that to each other...

STEW - Yeah, and to be honest, um...

RICH - ...but that's the worst...

STEW - ...we've had...we've had about two months off each other at the moment, cos we've both been working on different things. So it's really...I'm really looking forward to going back into the live show and, like, because, after a break, you can afford to have a bit of fun with your irritation with each other; whereas, if we'd done that two or three months ago it would've been a bit too real and unpleasant...(Rich sniggers)...whereas now it's really funny...

RICH - Yeah...

STEW - ...and, um...

RICH - ...and we've got...and we like each other at the end of the day, we like each other...if we didn't have to spend...when we don't have to spend sixteen hours a day with each other and we're not under the pressure of writing an entire TV show in a week...you like someone...

STEW - I, I, I...

RICH - ...however nice you were to me, if I had to write six TV shows with you, and was with you in a room for 16 hours, you'd hate me (chuckles) however much you like me, you'd hate me...

STEW - ...but I know Rich...I sort of know how I get on with Rich better than any person I've ever been out with - even for, like, 2 or 3 years - right, cos I've known him ten years and we've been working together a lot for, like, 10 years...so there's, like...

RICH - ...and yet, I think we still do avoid - I think as self preservation as a double act - I think we avoid the direct issues in it...I think it's quite interesting, y'know...but I think we've both, we take those up individually and, and, and we understand individually where we stand...where it stands...

STEW - ...if I knew you as a mate I would slag 'im off to you, but as a stranger I'd always back 'im up to you...that's the difference...that is why we'll never stop working together, because, um...if we were gonna fall out we would've done it by now, because no friends could ever had, um, such bad arguments as we've had and stayed together, because there'd be no point...

RICH - ...and probably never had as much, y'know, we have a really - (chuckles, lightly) it's very negative - y'know, we also have a really good laugh with...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...no friends have ever laughed from 4 o'clock in the morning to 5 o'clock in the morning, until they are crying...

STEW - ...but, similarly...

RICH - ...no-one else has done that...

STEW - ...I doubt many people have become so irritated with each other as we have (Rich quietly chuckles to himself) but, it's not like...People say 'Will you ever split up?' and we obviously won't, now. I can't imagine a situation in which we would...we'd never...if I had a really good idea and I thought Rich would have a lot to contribute to it I'd give...I'd always go, er 'Do you want to do this?' y'know, I'd never imagine a situation where I couldn't work with 'im, ever, because, like, I can't imagine us getting on worse than we have on some occasions...y'know, when we've had physical fights and thrown stuff at each other...it doesn't really matter, and like, um, if I could, er, if I could meet someone that I wanted to marry that I felt I could get on with as well...

RICH - He loves me! He does love me...

STEW - (Laughs)...and, um...

RICH - ...we wish, we really, I mean the thing is, as far as, um...

STEW - ...but I wouldn't wanna write a sit-com, right, about being...I wouldn't wanna...

RICH - ...this is the best, this is the best interview anyone's ever given...we're drunk... this is the best interview he's ever given...

STEW - I don't wanna write a sit-com, right, but I read his and I think 'That's really good', and I hope, similarly that, when I write a pretentious novel, Rich can read that and go...

RICH - ...when he writes journalism about music I wouldn't...I don't wanna do that, but I really do think 'Well, that's good', and it's not like a celebrity column, with his face and stuff, he's writing as a journalist and it's good and it's obviously - I mean, it's not something I'm interested in - it's well written, it's cleverly written and you get an understanding of what it's about...so that's the thing...we respect it...I think probably, we both probably respect each others opinion, but if Stew saw my play tonight and went 'It's shit. You've got to change the whole thing', I would (chuckles) go home tomorrow and change it all, y'know, but luckily...

STEW - But, I didn't...it made me cry, y'know what I mean? I was moved to tears by it, so, um...so he's off the hook. (Both laugh, quite evilly)

RICH - ...y'know, but I think we could, I think we could...y'know ...I think we can tell each other when something's really bad and the other might get annoyed at the time, but I think at the end of the day....

STEW - If he said, er, 'That's shit' I'd go, er, 'fuck you', but I'd, like, go home and think about it and I'd probably change it, you know what I mean? Cos he's the only...like there's about - apart from Rich - there's only about two or three comedians that I have any respect for as comedians...

Who are they?

STEW - Um, well, Simon Munnery - who does Alan Parker and League Against Tedium and 'Cluub Z' - although, again I think he's mental (Rich chuckles quietly) in a way that Rich just isn't, like with him you have to read between the lines...

When he's being Alan Parker he appears such a strong character, but after he just looks like he wants to run away...

STEW - Yeah...Most people, most people...like, most people...there's a lot of people that are more, er, famous and successful than us, right, like all the topical comedians 'Have I Got News For You' and whatever...you look at that and you think 'Well, they're doing really well', but the fact is, we could write...if we wanted to, we could write that...we're just not interested in it, y'know...we're not interested in writing that...we're like...That stuff we did on the show tonight about, um, the Manchester Olympics...I don't know if it really worked, but it was tryin' to, like, take the piss out of, um, most alternative comedy...just like...it's the cogs turning together, y'know, and we try and get outside that, so y'know, there's loads of stuff we could do we just don't...like...I think 'The Fast Show' is really good, right, but we could write 'The Fast Show'...we could write like, three hours of, like, characters, where the sentences are repeated and everybody gets into it...we don't really wanna do that...so it's kind of a catch-22 situation whereby your own integrity prevents you from being successful...uh...I hope that makes sense... (Rich has disappeared. Again.)

Does the insecurity of comedy as a job worry you at all?

STEW - Yeah, yeah it does, cos, um, like about a year and a half ago, uh, after years of debt - Rich more so than me, cos I've always done stand up - we both went in to credit and, uh, I liked being able to, like, pay the rent on my own flat now, and stuff like that and, uh, we were never certain that we'd get a third series of 'Fist Of Fun' - looks like we might do, or something. We'll definitely get another series for the BBC, dunno what it's going to be...but the thing is I thought 'Shit. I don't wanna go back to being on the dole', so I started trying to pitch articles to papers and stuff.. and I know now I could make a living out of writing features for papers...so the insecurity of it does worry me, but, like, but in the two months I've spent, like, writing features for papers, Rich has written a sit-com and a really good play, so I wonder whether I should have concentrated my efforts into, like, trying to do something more worthwhile, cos journalism's so disposable. But on the other hand, I think there's a knock on effect, where...whereby, um...actually, as a...as a unit... (last orders called)

RICH - (To Stew) Do you wanna drink or are you all right?

STEW - ...I'm all right thanks...as a unit it helps us, cos we seem to have, like, um, er... tentacles stretching out into every area of, um, stuff. So it's all right.

RICH - How many more have we got to go? Cos I've seen loads of people...

No...no don't panic...when you want...

RICH - Oh...oh...sorry, it's all right...sorry...I don't want it to be...you've got the best interview that anyone's ever had...

(Humouring him, slightly) Right...

RICH - ...with all that stuff...don't print any of it!

...okay...(being the Devil's advocate) do you think there's any strength to the argument that if you weren't Oxford graduates, you'd still be struggling?

RICH - No.

STEW - Not really, because, um, in the eighties, when I started doing stand up - in '89, there was such a backlash against Oxford graduates that, um, people would like me...for about six months, find out that I'd gone to Oxford, hate me then, about six months later go 'Oh, you're all right, you are...' And also, you've gotta think, there were loads of people that wanted to do comedy, when we did, from Oxford, who haven't got anywhere...so it doesn't really make any sense, y'know...

RICH - And I think it's an impossible thing to, like, divide, and go...cos the reason we got to Oxford wasn't cos...we got to Oxford cos we worked hard...in our A levels, we didn't get to Oxford because we're posh...we were, y'know, we were, like, clever at exams and were ambitious and that's...a trait that helps you succeed, y'know...and I mean, I think again... actually, I think individually neither of us probably would have done anything...I think we just sort of...we sort of covered the gaps in each others...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...psyche...I mean, I think Stew wouldn't've tried even to do comedy, unless we'd done comedy together...

STEW - ...no, I wouldn't, I'd've tried to...

RICH - ...and I'd've tried to do comedy and I'd've done...pretty...embarrassing comedy, probably that would never have made it...

STEW - ...I'd've tried to write books, or something, y'know...that's what I'd've done. I mean I, I hope to do that one day, but it's like, y'know, I think...also, like, um...there were loads of times when I couldn't be bothered to do stuff...I, I, I, got going on stand up really early on, right, like, on stand up, y'can take, y'can write a good twenty minutes and y'can do it for the next ten years, right, but there was only the fact that, like, Rich was saying 'No. We've got to write for radio', that spurred me on to try and do other stuff, otherwise I would have just become a stand up comedian, y'know...a twat... just a useless stand up comedian, with no ambition beyond...(Rich chuckles to himself)... beyond stand up, right...

RICH - (Quietly, laughing - Bloomin' stand up). But, also, like...it's not y'know what I mean?...it's not...you can't go on to an audience and go - well I can't, cos I've never gone to collect it, but - 'Here's my Oxford degree, so you obviously have to laugh at me... off we go! (Rich punctuates this with a clap) Right!' Y'know, it doesn't work like that, y'know. We're...we're quite clever, and, in fact, I think we hide how clever we are - I certainly do, a lot more than...I mean, Stew does, as well, but Stew plays that sort of character of a y'know...more of a, like, uh, this 'pseudo-cool' thing...which isn't, y'know, he's cleverer than that, I think...I mean, y'know what I mean?...

STEW - Yes I am, yeah...(laughs, weirdly)...

RICH - ...see, y'know...we're, we're clever but we don't, we're not...we're not interested in things...we're not interested in going...I keep saying in this interview that we're clever...it refers to...(his mumbles are talked over by Stew)

STEW - Okay, what I don't like, is like, you see a bloke like, you see a bloke like John Sessions, right, he does a joke and the only way you'll understand it is if you've got a Classics degree and people go 'Aaaah, a reference to Homer - aha!', we would never (he hits the table for emphasis) do that, right, but we probably know more about Classics than Sessions does, d'you know what I mean? So it's like, we would never write a joke that you'd have to have, like, a fucking degree to understand.

RICH - Unless...I mean we do, we've done...but, we'll also do stuff where there's two levels to the joke, so you laugh at one thing and then if you want to laugh at the ridiculously obscure, clever reference in it...you, well..

STEW - There's this girl, this girl who really loves our stuff, right, and, er, she come up to us one day, and she said, 'Oh that line you gave for Simon Quinlank, I thought it was really funny, but it's just copied off Shelley, isn't it?', and it wasn't copied off Shelley, it was just that the Sh...that Sh...that when Shelley says, um...in, in 'Ozymandias', er, Shelley says, um...

RICH - ...'Look upon my wonders and despair...'

STEW - ...'Look upon my wonders and despair...', that's almost the perfect way of expressing what Simon Quinlank's like, and it wasn't supposed to be, like, a joke that you could only understand if you'd read Shelley, it was just a funny line. So, it wasn't, like, we were going 'Aaaah, this is Shelley...', it was just like 'That's really funny', cos if you've read Shelley you laugh, but you probably laugh anyway, cos that's not the point...

RICH - Just a man, saying that...But most people know 'Ozymandias', 'cos they Study it, for like, 'O' level, or something like that (chuckles)...so that...but, uh, y'know...

Right...well, thanks for that...is it all right if we just take a couple of pictures and then...

RICH - Yeah...

STEW - Yeah, sure...

RICH - We look like shit, though, but go on...

STEW - Did you think the show was all right?

Huh?

STEW - Did you think the show was all right?

(Just SO not expecting that...)Yeah, the show was good, but, y'know it's like, like you said, the 'Moon On A Stick' and we found that funny...

STEW - Y-e-e-e-a-a-h...

...but it's hard to, like, really, really laugh when you've seen it on the show...

STEW - ...when no one else is...

RICH - I mean it's bizarre, I mean, cos we've just been off on tour doing that, and the place would break-up to pieces...

Yeah...

RICH - ...because, y'know, the joke is, we're taking the piss out of the (chuckles) catch-phrase and tonight, I think, people didn't know it or they thought 'Oh, what are they doing?', and y'know we're trying to do it...what I really like is the...I mean I really like the bare...I really liked the thing we did about the, um, Olympics, but it's a very comedy literate kind of thing, y'know...and probably if we'd just go on and gone 'Y'know, they should do drug tests ...imagine if the thing had been Manchester, do drugs tests and you failed if you hadn't got...' we'd probably have got a bigger laugh from that audience from just doing the joke, y'know...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...rather than trying to take the piss out of the joke...I, er...I prefer to try and take the piss out of the joke...I just think we...it's hard, it's a thing you've gotta really work up to, cos you're two shows in a night, for me, I think I was...I just wasn't...I mean I don't know...(Tape ends. Both Rich and Stew turn it over, in silence, but possibly a few seconds is missed)...There were things in there that I think you'll never see us do on stage again...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...uh, that were really good and that, y'know, we'll try to recreate and fail to recreate and, y'know, so...hopefully it's kind of worth it, for a battle...you think, hopefully, everyone had a reasonable time. And it's always, y'know, we, we...

STEW - Also, I think he made me laugh about, five times, and if people make me laugh, then there's, like...something good's going on, y'know...

RICH - I mean, I like, I like the fact sometimes we...I put in a joke that was just for Stew...I put a joke in that was just for Stew, and I think that's an interesting thing to see. I said, 'This joke is for Stew...', and did it, and he laughed. And, I think, that's an interesting thing to see...I'd like to see that...I'd like to see a lot of stand up double acts doing stuff like that, where you actually say, 'That was shit...', y'know... (Stew attempts to drink and laugh and talk simultaneously, but even he can't do that, and spits wine over the table)

Laughter...

STEW - Sorry, carry on (mumbles)...

RICH - ...and y'know, I think, I'm really excited about doing this stuff...I think we really have got to a really interesting level and it's cos it's an element of truth that stands as a falsehood...it's kind of...I know it's very hard to...it sounds...it sounds bad...

STEW - No, no ...

RICH - ...but there's an element of truth behind it, that we can both laugh at the truth behind and also there's an element of falsehood cos we're just playing characters (Stew makes a sarcastic face)...and we're deliberately, we're deliberately...um...(to Stew)... Does this sound terrible?

STEW - No, no...it's fine...

It'll sound good in the morning...

RICH - ...but we deliberately, um...are playing up the bad side, y'know, because that's comedy. And I'd rather play on the dark side, I'd rather play on the, the dark side of what...I really love all this really horrible stuff - the killing Maurice Mitchener and, er, the wanking over cows. I'm a vegetarian, but I loved the, uh, I love the, the wanking over cows stuff, I think that's really interesting. And also, him making me cry, me telling I love him, him...

Yeah, all that new stuff we found, like, really good, and we find most of your stuff really good - this'll sound really stupid now - but, just cos we, just cos we heard it before - some of it - so that's why...

RICH - (A bit indignant)...there wasn't that much, I mean you, you see...

...yeah, no, we know...we're not saying...

RICH - ...did you see, d'you see the tour? In May?

No...

RICH - ...there isn't that much, I mean there's little...little tiny jokes from the series but they're all expanded upon there, y'know?

Yeah...

RICH - I mean, to me, it's a completely different show. It's like taking...y'know, it's like taking a very, clean, childish joke, and turning it in to, like, a disgusting, gutter...y'know what I mean? It's horr...I think a lot of the stuff is really...horrible, I think there's... y'know, I think some people going 'Rwandan children' rather than 'poor children', I think that changes that into a completely different thing, y'know. I, I think that's an interesting...and interesting to deal with that, to go, 'I'd like to kill Maurice Mitchener' and see...and sometimes the audiences laugh and sometimes the audiences go 'Well that's too far...killing a three year old child...that's obviously going too far', y'know, and with crime in the country, and the things that are happening, that's an understandable reaction...but, I still think, as comedians, it's...that's, ah, y'know, an interesting thing to do in a live show we could never do on telly...

STEW - Yeah...

RICH - ...and tonight there weren't any twelve year olds in the audience for the show, which makes you...cos when you're doing some really disgusting...doing about masturbating over cows and smelling your burning semen and there's a twelve year old in the audience, you think, 'What effect will this have on his (chuckles something) life?!'...

Are you...have you got the tour in autumn?

STEW - Yeah...we're, uh, October, November, December, we're off most of the time...

...Right...okay, thanks for that...

RICH - Thanks a lot, I'm glad you could come...I read your e-mail, er, yesterday, but, ah, didn't...I didn't have time to reply to it (someone knocks over a million bottles)

(Assuming guilt automatically) Sorry, sorry, oh dear! Sorry...

RICH - Oh! It's a disaster!!

Sorry...(laughs)...sorry

STEW - ...no problem...

RICH - ...it was all empty! I've gotta go and drink this (indicates drink), somehow, now...

Okay...

STEW - ...see you round...

Thanks...

STEW - s'all right...(tape is stopped)
This interview was produced for Christ's Fat Cock Fanzine.
Interview by Kate Leach and Jo Wittams - © 1996 All Rights Reserved.
Originally posted on www.leeandherring.com, the official site.